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Another growing problem |
| A couple weeks ago, I penned a message to the site asking that authors be respectful of the site's archivists and to respect their rulings when it comes to story submission. However, there is another problem that disturbs me even more than this one - readers flaming authors. Not every story will suit the taste of readers on this site. There are stories dealing with abuse, rape, language, sexual situations, murder, death, and other subjects that make people uncomfortable. There is a reason that an "R" rating exists and it is a good indicator to help you steer away from content you may not want to read, or that you do not wish for your children or grandchildren to read. Some of you may think that Harry ice skating in a pink tutu is out of character, or that Ginny placed in an abusive relationship is completely wrong. It doesn't give any of you any excuse to be anything less than respectful to the authors who post their work to this site. If you do not care for an author's work, there are thousands of other stories on this site to read. There's something here to suit everyone. Reviewers who are being excessively cruel and demeaning toward authors in the reviews of their work will have those reviews deleted immediately. They will be watched. If they continue to flame those authors, then the appropriate steps will be taken to ban those reviewers. We're not always going to agree with every story submitted to this site, but there is a polite way of stating that you do not care for a body of work than completely trashing someone personally. Flaming an author is inexcusable. The anonymous cloak that the Internet provides doesn't make flames any less hateful or hurtful toward the author. Authors and readers, if you notice a person's review of a story is flaming, please do not hesitate to contact staff. DQBunny Chief Archivist |
| DQBunny on 2007.11.26 - 01:57AM () |
melkior came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 08:55AM to say:
Maybe abuse and rape warnings would be a help. Some people just don't want to read those types of stories and take out their frustrations in the review. I'm not defending them, but I can understand them.
Sexual situations and violence warnings don't really predict rape in the story. It would probably help if people could see the warning and simply avoid the story.
KateriBella came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 09:44AM to say:
Lack of respect in person translates into even less respect anonymously. Melkior, good idea - the majority of people know what an R rating on a movie means -- strong situations such as rape, abuse, extreme violence or sexual situations, but "it must mean something different in the online world." Putting an "abuse" or "rape" warning on these stories would probably help in spelling out the R-rating for some people, because these are the same people that we've had to put the "do not use in shower" on hairdryers or "do not insert into any bodily orifice" on curling irons (and yes, they are on these items). Thanks DQBunny for being such a dedicated, dilligent archivist!
melkior came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 10:01AM to say:
The R rating means many things. For instance, it could entail consensual sex and extreme violence in action scenes. The warnings for this (on SIYE) would be Violence, and Strong sexual situations. But the same warnings (and rating) would apply to a story that includes rape. This can create confusion. As far as I'm concerned, rape is a step up from sex and violence and should probably be flagged separately just to let people know.
iluvfanfics came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 10:32AM to say:
I am pleased to see the administration taking a stance on this. My current fic, "Need," is *apparently* quite the controversary among reviewers and some of them have left rather hateful reviews -- they've even gone so far as to email me personally and complain about the plot. It's not that they complain about the grammar, or the writing, it's that they don't like what the characters are doing or the direction I've taken them. To these people I always try and say, "Well, thanks for reading" but it's hard to keep from lashing back at them. I mean, first of all, it's FAN FICTION -- it's not supposed to be just like JK's. Otherwise, what would be the point? And secondly, just like DQBunny said, if they don't like it, they don't have to read it! I understand that not everyone will like my fics, but those who don't seem to take it so personally! Like I've set out to hurt them! It's interesting to note that, with a few exceptions, a negative review is a lot longer than a positive review!
DQBunny came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 11:26AM to say:
melkior: We do have warnings on stories. They're included down in the summaries and indicate things such as violence, sexual situations and death. It's definitely worth reconsidering them to narrow them down.
DQBunny came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 11:31AM to say:
iluvfanfics: Thanks for letting us know. I'll take a look at your story and see who's doing it the worst. You don't have to stand for it, and feel free to report it if it continues. You're absolutely right in that it's fan fiction and that it's not a personal insult if things don't turn out the way that you'd hope.
melkior came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 11:55AM to say:
DQBunny: I know warnings exist, and that's a good thing. I just believe that a couple of additional ones (such as Sexual abuse or similar) might help the situation a little bit.
As or myself, I don't really care if someone flames my work. As long as there's a method to respond (such as review responses) I'm fine with that.
iluvfanfics came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 12:08PM to say:
I don't want to say that I can't handle a negative review -- most negative reviews are just fine and respectful. And really, one can't publish something without expecting criticism. It's the ones who act as if I wounded them that I don't know what to do with. I feel bad for them -- like I should have done it differently so they won't feel so disappointed in me! LOL I'm not sure the negative reviews on "Need" would count as "flaming" but if you're bored sometime, they are def. a good read!
Leonheart666 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 01:06PM to say:
i think possibly some of the reasons why this does occur is the warning system itself. I'm English, always have been, always will be. none of our rating systems use "R" as a warning, they give ages. it actually did take me quite a while to realise that "R" is the strongest stories, and even then it was guesswork. this may be the case for other readers, perhaps not knowing the warning system inside out, and thus getting themselves into stories that they really shouldn't. saying that, if someone doesn't like a story, they don't have to read it, as you said. still, it could be something to look at. perhaps being more explicit with warnings would do some good. the alternative is that some people are out to flame others, which i know nobody truly wants to think about in their members, but it's a possibility that's not to be taken lightly. personally, i say harsh action should be taken upon flamers, especially if it seems they didn't take anything into account when posting. sounds tough, but tough is good for the majority of members who are good reviewers, and who review constructively.
TrainzStoffe came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 04:11PM to say:
I totally agree with DQBunny here - any kind of harassment should be dealt with, swiftly and strongly! However, and I've seen some have hinted at this before me - Authors, please use the Summary or pre-chapter author's notes to inform the readers that there is rape (or really anything that could be disturbing) coming up, in the story or in the specific chapter. It allows readers to filter out, or prepare for "unwanted" events. It can be hard to do without uncovering too much of the plot beforehand, but I think it's a bit like writing a good summary in general - it is something you can learn with practice and a bit of time. I've seen several good ones ("Please keep a tissue handy" is one of my favorites), but just a simple "Warning: Character death in this chapter" (or whatever event) is much better than nothing. If you have a general idea about what you're getting in to, the impact will most likely be a bit less sharp. That's my reasoning anyway.
starrymoonmaiden came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 04:27PM to say:
Amen to this! Even if I weren’t a victim of some serious flaming, I would be all for this! I think both readers and authors need to respect each other. It is one thing to criticize and make suggestions that will help the author – it is quite another to literally attack someone’s writing and/or attack them personally for no good reason. In reviews, I think it is important to be critical of the characters, plot, etc, but also to be mindful of what is said. Everyone is responsible for the words they write, and I truly feel that if a reviewer doesn’t have something constructive to say (like something to do with grammar, spelling, punctuation, a plot hole, a timing that might be off, etc.) that will help the author, then they shouldn’t say anything. It is perfectly okay to dislike something and have your say, but really – wouldn’t it just save everyone more time and energy if one were to simply stop reading when it is discovered that the plot isn’t enjoyable? I think it is vital that we all treat each other with respect, and realize that this is FAN-FICTION. We are all here for the same purpose – to read and enjoy good writing. We are here to create and read stories that are not exactly like Rowling’s – stories that dare to be different and take chances and push the boundaries. It does not help the cause when readers and writers are arguing and/or putting each other down all the time. I do think the R rating warning suggests the implication and possibility of violent, sexual, and/or scary themes – I don’t think that it needs to be said. (You don’t find movie announcers saying “Rated R for rape, incest, violence, alcohol abuse, etc.”) The warning system, in my opinion, is efficient, but perhaps what KateriBella said was true – we have to put warnings on the irons to let people know not to use them when their clothes are on… In any event, I say THANK YOU very much to DQBunny for addressing this ever-pressing issue. Now that it has been brought to the forefront, hopefully people will be mindful of what they say, and truly start treating each other with the respect we all deserve.
Jonathan Brenner came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 05:19PM to say:
Tracy, when I read DQ's post you were the first one I thought of. I think people need to remember that, as Tracy (starrymoonmaiden) said, this is fan fiction, not necessarily written by professional writers and certainly not being written for money. It seems a lot of people find it easy to criticize, but how many have actually taken the time to try it? -JB
griffindorechicky101 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 06:52PM to say:
Even thogh no one ever listens to me i'm gona put my opion in anyway! About this whole thing i totlay agree , i mean they are right rape is worse than than sexual sitains but what you don understand is that it is a sexual sitation and so they are warning you. Just likein some stories that i have read it talks aboutin authers notes all the time how it goes for later chapters and im also always reading in authors notes about how somthing big like rape will come around! Tragic is also antohr thing that can go for rape i mean inow someone who was raped and she comsiders it a tradgic part of her life! Then theres the part about if p-13 s.s is too much dont read it when it is R and has sexual sitions! I mean HELLO its comman sense! Me for my story i have not recieved any flames but i have recieved some rood reviews about how my plot in my story is going. like every one is saying this isnt for profit and it is"FAN FICTION" were making a story about a realtionship between harry and ginny!
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 07:14PM to say:
Griffindorechicky, we'd love to listen to you. We just have trouble reading what you're saying.
Anyway, I'd also be in favour of expanding the warnings a bit; if nothing else, to include a warning for sexual violence. There's a big difference between a fic that includes sex scenes and fight scenes, and one that includes rape scenes.
Oh, and Kateribella:
"do not insert into any bodily orifice" on curling irons
That sounds like a story that would need all the warnings it could get... ;-)
griffindorechicky101 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 08:05PM to say:
wait you cant read what i wrote
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 08:08PM to say:
The warnings at the moment are a little too general to be all that useful as personal guidelines; 'sexual situations' in a good many stories does not even seem to refer to sex - that being the case, it's fairly useless to any reader who's trying to avoid stories with sex, let alone stories that include rape or attempted rape as part of the plot
The warnings system theoretically should allow readers to steer clear of stories that include plot elements that they find personally objectionable; the 'sexual situations' and 'violence' warnings don't really do that because they are too general.
At the moment, 'sexual situations' can refer to anything from rape and sexual torture to detailed snogging. Very few people are going to object to the entire range of situations that the warning covers, and hence, very few people are going to look at the warning and think, 'hmm... sexual situations? I'll give it a miss.' What's the point of having the warning if it doesn't tell you where you're about to read a story detailing the horrors that Ginny experiences as Malfoy's sex slave or a story in which Harry and Ginny have an intense snog every twenty chapters?
Elementum came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 08:25PM to say:
I don't understand why people have to leave hateful reviews in the first place. If I'm in the middle of a story and something suddenly happens that I don't approve of for any reason do you know what I do? I hit the 'Back' button.
griffindorechicky101 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 08:41PM to say:
lol nice! sorry that was jsut funny not meaning to be rood or anything!
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 08:42PM to say:
Hmmm. I haven't seen any flame-reviews at SIYE though... But I sympathise with iluvfanfics... People can get SO irrational at times...
As for the warnings, yeah, maybe there should be sub-categories:
Sexual situations - kissing, heavy kissing, consensual sex, non-consensual sex, sexual acts of an extreme nature...
Violence - fistfight, brawling, duelling, killing, murder, torture...
KateriBella came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 09:36PM to say:
Thanks starrymoonmaiden. Nothing like getting burned (reading a story you find offensive) to teach you to mind the fire (check the ratings/summaries). Torak -- I knew someone would find that disturbingly amusing. And I have no problem with expanding the warnings. Not much disturbs me; however, I can realise the differences in people and their writing and their storylines. Elementum has it right -- if I come across something that does disturb me at the time, I hit my "Back" button, too.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 10:11PM to say:
I've seen authors post thoughts types of warnings, so it's the readers own fault for reading them if they don't like it. If you don't like it, don't read it, that's what I say.
quinn came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.27 - 08:42AM to say:
Good thoughts all around, but I think that we're giving a lot of credit to the 'flamers'. These are, for the most part, messages left with the intent of tearing someone down. I think the more specific warnings would provide less of an excuse for them, but if someone's out to flame stories, then that's what they'll do. I want to say a big thanks for letting authors know that they don't have to accept that kind of thing. Just another reason I love this site, you work hard to be as supportive to the authors as possible. Thanks!
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.27 - 05:36PM to say:
Sakabatou: Not to cast any blame on starrymoonmaiden or iluvfanfics, but in both their cases, you didn't get much warning that their stories contained controversial or potentially objectionable issues until you actually read the stories. Starrymoonmaiden's story summary makes no mention of abuse - just that Harry left and Ginny promised herself to another man. 'If you don't like it, don't read it' isn't an option unless you know beforehand that there's something in there that you won't like. In many stories, this simply isn't the case, and you don't know until the objectionable content is right on top of you. Which brings me to Elementum's point.
Hitting your 'back' button doesn't quite assuage the disappointment when a story you've been enjoying starts heading for territory in which you're uncomfortable. Stories that seem fairly innocent until eight or ten chapters in before hitting you in the face with a rape/ torture/ abuse scene are always going to draw a stronger response than stories that start off dark and controversial. Invariably, some readers will react to the plot developments with anger, and take out their disappointment on the author by flaming them.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.27 - 07:51PM to say:
Oohh, may bad.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.27 - 07:52PM to say:
my bad. Lol:)
hot48cricket came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.27 - 08:25PM to say:
I don't flame authors. If a story does not suite my taste, then I do not read any further - and usually don't leave a review.
Professor_Chris came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 12:00AM to say:
It's unfortunate that you even have to post this... If people don't like the story then don't bother reading it, attacking the author is unkind, if the comments are not helpful then they shouldn't be made. If the comments are constructive and help the author then they should be posted in a meaningful and thoughtful manner.
pepperluck came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 12:01AM to say:
I agree with hot48cricket. I do the same. I do also agree with someone earlier who said that the rating are not universal. Maybe there should be somewhere explaining what each of the ratings and even warnings mean.
iloveharry25 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 02:14AM to say:
I think people sometimes forgets that it's fanfiction and there is a reason why it's called fanfiction. I do believe that if you have nothing good to say(writte in this case) don't do it because people is writting for free and instead of encouraging them to keep doing it sometimes people critize too harsh and must be really hard as a writter to read that. Let's give thanks to all those writters because they do it for the love of writting and for us, and most of the times they don't know us and (at least in my case) after a hard day at work, and sometimes at home seeing that one of my favs stories has been updated makes me feel tha happiest person in the whole wide world. And if those people keep doing flames why don't they writte so we can see how great they are So THANKS to all you guys out there who make us happy everyday. My respects to you guys you are the best!!!
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 03:34AM to say:
Professor_Chris - Yes. Any reasonable person would know that, in your own words, "If people don't like the story then don't bother reading it, attacking the author is unkind"
However, when a person has followed a fanfic series for over 80 5000-word chapters, and suddenly the plot throws in a sharp, unwelcome twist (rape, death, etc.) the person is emotionally affected and thus may not momentarily be in full control of his or her actions. In fact, I believe impulsive action very likely accounts for 90% of flames on the 'net...barring those written by psychos and radicals, of course.
What I'm saying here is that maybe we authors should make it easier on the reader/reviewer...write in the Author's Note section in appropriate detail whatever the fic is going to come up with.
Kezzabear came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 09:16AM to say:
I think some authors don't KNOW what the story is going to come up with, so they can't put it in the Author's Note section.
JadeSeraph came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 10:28AM to say:
I think the main issue being debated here is whether it is the author's or the reader's responsibility for the content that comes across the reader's eyes. The first thing I would like to mention is the 'R' rating implies (at least to me) not an age you should be to read a story, but a maturity to handle almost anything the author might throw at you. If a story goes beyond the R rating, then I would put it upon the archivists to make sure that the stories do not get posted in the first place - I'm assuming that's one of the reasons that they're reviewed before being placed on the site. nterestingly enough, I'm rather shocked that SIYE even has to deal with the issue of content. As far as I knew, SIYE is a family oriented site that wasn't going to allow the offensive content (rape, graphic torture, etc.) that might offend some readers, but apparently that's not the case?
Regardless, I do believe that the author has some responsibility to warn the reader of certain scenes they might not find acceptable. When I read SIYE's Terms of Service before posting my first story, I was under the impression that graphic nudity within the context of a sexual scene wasn't allowed, so I cut it out and had the full version of the chapter hosted elsewhere. I believed it took away from the chapter and the story to do so, but I thought what SIYE was doing to keep things clean and family safe was (and still is) a noble task. In my case, there was a solid reason for keeping such a scene in the story, but I know in a lot of cases there are other ways to accomplish the same intended result without the graphic abuse, rape, etc. My suggestion to authors is to take a long hard look at why you're including a scene and see if there isn't a less aggressive way to go about it. If you do decide to include it, make sure you err on the safe side and include in the author's note of the chapter that there's a scene some readers might find offensive.
After that, it's all up to the reader. Creative writing is just that - the author is taking creative license to bring you a story that they want to write, and this is the way they feel they want to portray it to you. I understand it can be rough to read a novel length story only to be turned off by a particular plot choice, but have some faith in your author! They obviously had you hooked for as long as you have been reading - don't just hit the back button and sigh because a good story was ruined. Give it a chance and see if there's a very good reason/idea behind the choice. If you still don't like it, leave a review saying that their choice turned you off, say why, and leave it at that. Flaming them isn't going to make you unsee the words on the page, and they're not going to go back and change everything. Perhaps flaming makes some people feel better, but is hurting an author the way to do that?
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 01:39PM to say:
Sapphire summed it up for me - I don't consider that I've ever posted a flame, per se, but I have posted somewhat biting reviews that I would normally have attempted to soften out of consideration for the author's feelings.
TrainzStoffe came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 03:57PM to say:
Sapphire200182 did indeed put a few of my thoughts that I left unsaid earlier into good words - I know I've been wanting to write some reviews that wouldn't have turned out very nice at all. But the difference here is that I (as a more or less mature person) took a step back, calmed myself down, and then left the review. Often, the "step back" part is missing when the review left is hurtful.
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 04:45PM to say:
As an author, I reserve the right to give a flame response to any flame review I recieve.
Jonathan Brenner came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 06:14PM to say:
I still don't see how any of this justifies cruel and demeaning reviews. If you don't like the way a story is heading, that's your right as a reader. If you don't like the content of the story, that's your right as a reader. But it is NOT your right as a reader to be excessively nasty in a review, simply because you did not like what you read. I think (and forgive me if I am wrong) that is the whole point of this thread. Maybe the abuse/rape/content of the story is the reason, but it is not an excuse. Honestly, not knowing something is coming in advance doesn't bother me, it's kind of the whole point of reading a story. But I understand some people might want a heads up on this kind of stuff. Fine. But does that excuse readers from an open flame war on a writer that, honestly, has not done anything wrong? My two cents.
-JB
melkior came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 06:17PM to say:
I never leave flames. Somehow I manage to stop my self. I only mentioned additional warnings as a method of possibly decreasing the number of vitriolic reviews.
spaceraider53 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 07:42PM to say:
.....i agree with Soccer Devil22, if a reader is flaming an author, let the author strike back at them. If the author is not creative enough to insult someone then how are they creative enough to write fic for SIYE? anyways...moving on from my silly notions...i think it would be good to simply take away the review privileges from hateful readers, but out right banning IPs might be bad. Like if you ban the IP to some major univeristy that uses internal NAT you could block hundreds of readers at once some of which might not deserve it all.
Miss Radcliffe came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.28 - 09:10PM to say:
JadeSeraph's comment pretty much summed up most of what I think of this situation. The purpose of a review is to compliment an author or give constructive criticism and suggestions. They are not a device to discredit, abuse, or discrourage the author or the story. I got a flaming review on the first fanfiction chapter I ever posted online (three years ago) and it was extremely discouraging. I didn't post anything else for months until a friend of mine told me to grow a backbone and not let others deter me from this form of expression. That is my advice to all authors who have had flaming reviews. These reviews are unprofessional and they obviously don't take the hard work and long hours an author may put into a chapter or story seriously. If you really enjoy and/or care about the stories you write and you like sharing them online, don't let unprofessionalism and immaturity deter you from this! As courtesy to some of fanfiction's more innocent readers or readers that find certain or all forms of violence and sexual situations disturbing or offensive, it would be in an author's best interest to add more specific warnings to their author's notes in the chapters containing these things. However, in the end it is a reader's choice to read a story, continue reading it after reading something that disturbs them, and to leave a review. Miss Radcliffe~
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 12:58AM to say:
Kezzabear - it doesn't need to be in the front part of the fic. How about, "Oh, btw, the next chappy has got some controversial subjects. If you are offended, take a deep breath, relax, go for a brew, and then leave a review...."
SoccerDevil22 - Two wrongs maketh not a right...though a retaliatory flame doth give great satisfaction.
JB - My point is that generally flamers don't think before they act, so they shoot their mouths off on the 'Net before they can do anything. Perhaps if we authors gave them a chance to back off without losing 'face' they would?
All this talk about flame-wars bring some memorable ones to mind =D
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 01:09AM to say:
I am so glad that finally the admin tackled the issue. Its quite simply really, if you do not like the story, politely tell the author why, and then don't read it again. I understand iluvfanfics feelings toward such unnecessary harshness that border on personal attacks, my story had quite a few unsavoury reviews and its quite upsetting to see. Maybe controversial stories should be marked with a big C. Or something. My response is usually a "thank you for the review" . Although once I did write back a rather mean AR. I say flame back!!! Flamers should face the consequences of their words!
stnssydny came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 03:45AM to say:
I think that everyone has the freedom and the right to comment on what they read providing that they don't go over the top to the standards of this site. Recently I gave a rather harsh review to a story that I shall not name because of issues that I personally have with the story and I must say that I had deep remorse for doing what I did because I was out of line but I don't regret doing it either. As part of that remorse I even send a personal message to that author saying that I was sorry and I didn't receive a reply back not that I was expecting one. It wasn't until today that I found an email from DQBunny Chief Archivist That said I was this and that and if I continued with my reviews that I would be banned. In response to that email I told him that he could do whatever he liked and I also requested that my account be removed for personal reasons. In closing I will say this everyone has the right to say what he or she thinks weather it is positive or negative. Since we all live around the world it is very hard to say what we think in person so hence forth the reviews. While I may not like the ideas of flames they happen all the time and since I to write fanfiction I read them to see what they said. Some of them may hurt me but I don't make a fuss about them because I respect that persons decision on what they thought of my work. In the end it comes down to the author as to weather they accept it with a grain of salt or they can make a mountain out of an ants hill by complaining about it. Just remember people place their work on the net for others to read and as a result they should expect to receive a couple of flames concerning this or that.
Kezzabear came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 07:32AM to say:
"Kezzabear - it doesn't need to be in the front part of the fic. How about, "Oh, btw, the next chappy has got some controversial subjects. If you are offended, take a deep breath, relax, go for a brew, and then leave a review...."
I was referring more to this statement "However, when a person has followed a fanfic series for over 80 5000-word chapters, and suddenly the plot throws in a sharp, unwelcome twist (rape, death, etc.) the person is emotionally affected"
Putting a warning 85 000 words in will not change that is all I was thinking.
Sibling Creature came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 08:23AM to say:
Kezzabear - I would have to disagree with that. When Dolenbyd was posting the original version of Lost Children, and realised halfway through posting that it would end as a tragedy, the warnings were updated and the next chapter posted had an a/n at the top advising of the change. For those of us who generally (or specifically) avoid reading such stories it was somewhat disappointing to find out at that point. Some of us, like melindaleo stopped reading it at that point. Others like myself took the warning under advisement and read on. I'm not saying that anyone involved would have even considered flaming the author, my point is rather that even at that late point in the posting we were able to make a rational decision on the matter based on the new information.
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 08:54AM to say:
Kezzabear - True. Giving a warning at that point would not preclude flames. However, it does put the author on the side of the angels, because the author can say "Hell, I WARNED HIM!" There would be NO controversy over whether the author was at fault for springing a surprise rape/murder/torture/character death on the reader. Hopefully, the potential flamer will be appeased by the heads-up and just skip the chapter or whatever.
So yeah, giving advanced warning is both common courtesy and covering your ass. What more can you ask for?
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 08:56AM to say:
I want a big red button that I can push when I read a really bad story. Of course, normally they'd never get through, but a few do. And for them I want a big red button that'll give the "author" a nice big electric shock. Who knows, maybe Pavlovian conditioning works with writers as well.
Still, flames are unacceptable. As long as the fic's halfway competent - spelling, characterisation, and a plot that isn't asinine - at least. But a fic that isn't, is also unacceptable.
iluvfanfics came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 10:46AM to say:
OH! I agree with so many things said here! The two that struck me the most were JadeSeraph and Sapphire. I think Sapphire has a point and it's certainly one I've seen in the reviews people leave for me -- they get emotionally attached (which is a compliment to the author) and then if something happens that they don't like, they get upset and leave a response without thinking! Much like we lash out people when they upset us. It's amusing to me that people who leave flame reviews get upset when they are caught by the admin. They didn't give any thought to criticizing an author in a particularly vicious manner but they certainly had a problem being criticized themselves! I also would like to say regarding "Need" and some of the negative reviews I've gotten: While some of the reviews have been rather harsh, I don't think any of them qualified as flaming. I consider flaming to be a psychotic rant and most of the ones I received, while derogatory, were not necessarily the ravings of a lunatic. Maybe I'm being too lenient. I did take offense to some of the personal emails but then that's not the subject here. I also want to point out that for every negative review, there are at least two positive reviews; so I try to keep that in perspective. And when I write something controversial -- I know it's going to be controversial before I even publish it. So I'd be an idiot not to expect negative reviews. And I expect most authors feel that way.
DQBunny came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 11:53AM to say:
stnssydny: There is a difference between disagreeing with a story posting on the site and outright flaming. What you were doing was outright flaming. SoccerDevil22: No, please don't. Just let the administration handle it. Otherwise, it's going to turn into a huge flame war and attract the attention of other sites such as Fandom Wank. It's a poor reflection on our site not just for readers to attack authors, but for authors to turn around and attack those same readers right back. iluvfanfics: You made some very good points indeed as well!
JadeSeraph came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 12:59PM to say:
stnssydny: I very strongly disagree with you. An author should not expect any flames at all for any reason. Perhaps you are speaking under a different definition of flame. To me, flaming means attacking the author or author's works with intent to cause harm without any attempt to provide constructive criticism. I agree that an author should expect criticism, but not flames under any circumstance.
I agree with everything DQBunny said about flame wars. Just don't do it - nothing good can come out of retaliation. I recently read an author's note (from an author who's work I liked very much) flaming a reviewer and I lost most of the respect I had for said author, regardless of the reason behind the attack. "He did it first!" is not an excuse.
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 02:53PM to say:
Before we go any further, then, it might be helpful for the admin to give some indication of what they consider to constitute a flame in respect to comments left in a review. Surely it is better to come up with a more concrete set of dos and do nots rather than simply relying on the social conscience of the broader SIYE community to stop hurtful comments from being posted?
The separation between flaming and constructive criticism is not as obvious to everyone as it should be; is an overly nit picky, critical review that ignores the positive aspects of a story in favour of blasting the negative ones a 'flame'? How about a review that makes valid points, and gives the author good feedback, but is phrased in a manner that is hurtful, insulting, or plain rude?
I left a rather acerbic, tactless and frankly quite hurtful review in Penny's story, but the intent of the review certainly wasn't to offend or discourage. It is well and good to say that reviewers should stop to consider the feelings of the author before leaving comments, but do remember that there are significant numbers of tactless and/or socially impaired individuals out there. Telling them to imagine the effect that their words are having on the authors of the stories that they review, when they probably don't even notice the effect that their words are having on individuals that they speak to face-to-face, is probably not going to yield spectacular results.
On a related note, can the admin fix it so that each user can only rate a story once? At the current time, an individual who is disgruntled with a story and wishes to hurt the author can just as easily rate a story a 1/10 multiple times until the star rating is well down than post a hurtful review. The effect on the author, in fact, is probably a lot more pronounced than if the reviewer had left an obvious flame - the author does not know that a single review is responsible for such a dramatic drop in the star ratings, and assumes that there are many individuals who dislike their story. Moreover, a lower star rating keeps new readers from giving the story a chance, discouraging the author even further.
JadeSeraph came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 03:28PM to say:
That feels like a really pessimistic view of the SIYE community to me. In my opinion, an admin shouldn't have to establish the difference between a critical review and a flame. I know this is the Internet, but the same rules of common decency and courtesy still apply, and most people know how to be nice. Perhaps Red is right about socially challenged individuals, but it really isn't that hard to leave a review that isn't destructive. There's not really any reason to be condescending in a review - if you can't review without sounding hurtful, then don't review at all. There are two reasons (in my opinion) reviews should be used: one, the reader can let the author know how wonderful their story was, and two, the reader can offer constructive criticism. In the second case, if the reader is taking their time to offer their thoughts, why would they diminish the impact with a negative tone? For the other slim percentage, that's why the admins have the delete and ban buttons, or at least preventing a member from leaving a review.
To address the tactless/socially impaired: Phrase everything in your review as an opinion. Don't say "This was bad, do this and fix it." While some authors won't take offense to that and might respond better, if you don't know, just don't do it. Instead, "I thought that..." or "This section felt to me like it could have been better if you had..." works a lot better. Reviews are advice, not demands - keeping that in mind will fix 95% of reviews that come off as hurtful when they aren't intended to be.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 04:26PM to say:
I have had my shares of flames and critical reviews, and I prefer critical reviews since most of them are constructive. Sure, I might get a few that might put me down, but nothing compares to one I had two or three years ago. I had asked SIYE to remove it, and they did.
We will always have readers out there will speak what they think, like I had not too long ago someone had wrote I go on and on. The reader might be right, but that's probably see it. I've read on where the author just babbled on. I couldn't take it, so I don't read it. Although, I'm sure there are readers who like it.
I say, if you don't like it, don't read it, and if you want to leave a review, say why kindly. Well, enough of my opinions, back to writing my story:)BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 04:49PM to say:
Jade - but if that's what reviews should be used for, it isn't, in my experience, what reviews generally are used for. People leave reviews:
1. To say how much they loved the story.
2. To bug the author to update.
3. To give their thoughts on the plot. E.g: 'it was interesting when Ginny said that _____.'
4. To argue about the characterisations. E.g: 'But in page 102 of OOtP it says that ____'.
5. To complain.
6. To offer constructive criticism.
7. To ask questions about the plot/ get the author to clarify points of interest.
8. To argue with previous reviewers.
9. To complain about canon. E.g: 'One of the things I didn't like about DH, that I liked here...'
10. To speculate about where they think the story is headed.
From years at university/ college politics classes, teaching high school and general internet debating, my experience is that it never is good enough just to tell people to be polite and respectful of one another. The majority of argumentative individuals I've come across don't even take the time to phrase their opinions in a tactful manner when the recipient of their rudeness is standing right in front of them, and their hurt is plain for all to see. How do you expect a large community of writers and readers to observe such courtesies when a small, tight-knit group unprotected by anonymity has to be forced to do the same?
The majority of SIYE, I think, knows well enough not to flame authors. Certainly, in most cases, the number of positive reviews seem to far outweigh the negative ones. This topic isn't addressed at the whole community as much as it is addressed at a minority within the community; such individuals really aren't likely to listen to vague warnings or appeals to their better nature.
Look at the minor argument prompted by stnssydny - he insists that he merely disagreed with the content of a story. DQBunny insists that he flamed.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 05:54PM to say:
Seraph: some things are opinions. Others are fact. It would be stupid to say "I felt that you misspelled a few words" when it would be more accurate to say "Your spelling is atrocious and you would really benefit from a good beta".
I'll be adding to this a bit later, once I've composed a suitable tirade. Watch this space. (Not this one. A bit further down.)
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 05:55PM to say:
Oh, and having seen stnssydny's "reviews", they were flames. They were legitimate opinions, but posted repeatedly and should more appropriately have been sent privately to the author.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 06:32PM to say:
I looked at stnssydny's reviews, and there were a lot of so called, "constructive criticism," and there were a lot. More than what I got for my first story. I feel bad for the author since it looks like this is his first time at fan-fiction. It sounds like stnssydny's got a beta, and like my first beta, she only worked on fixing the spelling and grammar. I can't say, but I can feel the pain this person must be feeling.
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 07:20PM to say:
As a writer, I have full rights to defend my work. As a citizen of the United States of America, have the right to express my opinun about another persons comment as long as it does not involve slander. This right is protected by the First Amendment to United States Constituion. I have no intentions of starting a 'flame war', but if my work is flamed, I have the right to strike back with as much vigor as was directed at me so long as I stay within the bounds granted by the United States Constitution.
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 07:25PM to say:
This isn't the United States of America. This is SIYE - here, you have the right to do whatever the administration tells you you're allowed to do. If that includes counter-flaming, then well and good. If it doesn't, well then you don't have the right to do anything of the sort.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 07:30PM to say:
The Press of America uses the first Amendment, and they go overboard with that. I don't know how many times I've screamed at news reporters to back off on someone who had lost a loved one.
But like BeyondRedHorizons said, it's not the U.S., it's SIYE, and is international, so the Constitution won't work here.
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 07:43PM to say:
I can not be punished and/or criticised for excersing the rights my country offers me; regardless if my influence spreads beyond my country's border. I am not trying to exhibit an 'I am an American, you do what I say,' philosophy that I know others do. Merely excerising my rights. So in close, while I respect your opinun, I stand by what I said. Authors have the right to protect their work which is a direct reflection upon them. Any attack against said work, may be interruptated as an attack upon the author him/herself. They have the right... no, the duty to protect their work within reasonable restrictions. This is the last I'm going to say on the topic.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 08:08PM to say:
Oh, for buggeration's sake. Soccer Devil, I really like the idea of striking back at idiot reviewers with a counter-flame - as long as it's funny - but I do get annoyed by the attitude.
The key thing to bear in mind is that constitutional rights, like human rights in the UK, only apply to institutions. On a private website, just as in a privately-owned newspaper or magazine, there is no right to publication. You have a right to say whatever you like, but you don't have a right to find whatever you submit published. So your argument's totally inapplicable.
For anyone else wondering how best to respond to flames, try to be a bit grown up about it. Get a flaming review, just let us know and we'll get rid of it. DO NOT ENGAGE IN A FLAME WAR.
There's an old expression. "Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 08:17PM to say:
"Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
ROFL. I never heard that before, Torak. I'll remember that since I work with idiots:)
elaithin came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 08:45PM to say:
To sum up the entire discussion: "Don't be a jerk, folks."
lecook4 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 09:02PM to say:
Torak "Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
That sums up this whole comment section. I love it. I'm writing that one down. LOL!
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 09:15PM to say:
Right, here's that continuation I promised:
My reviews tend to be rather brusque, for instance; mainly because I read a lot, and I see a lot of rubbish written by idiots. Nowadays, I almost only review when a story, however bad, seems to have at least some redeeming feature. Something that, with work, can make it a good story.
I don't have any mercy when it comes to spelling and other technical aspects, though. In an age of spell checkers, dictionaries, free education (laughable as it may be in some corners of the world, like Britain, Sweden and America), and easy access to betas, there is absolutely no excuse for SPaG errors. There is no excuse for wnot capitalising or punctuating. There is no excuse for any errors at all in the title, summary or first few paragraphs (if someone doesn't have the attention span to proofread a hundred words, what makes them think I should sit through the bloody thing?).
And there is never, under any circumstances, an excuse for the sentence "Dumbledore was loosing his patients" unless he's become a doctor and has just released his charges. Yes, I have seen that sentence in a fic, and yes, if I ever see anything like it I will be merciless in my comments about it.
There are differences between flames and constructive criticism. The edge sometimes blurs, but to my mind it boils down to this: Flames are intended to hurt. Criticism is informative and intended, however harshly worded, to help.
And if someone keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, keeps getting help, and refuses to take advice or improve - and you know who you are - they have forfeited what goodwill they originally had. At that point I assume they're not trying, that they're taking the mickey. And then they are subject to real criticism. Not many on SIYE have suffered it, but rest assured - having seen the dearth of utter rubbish that's been appearing over the last year, I'm growing tired of being nice.
Oh, and just for guidance, how about a small collection of excuses and why they're bollocks? Oh, all right then, since you insist.
- "But I'm only thirteen!" (usually seen as "wtf but im only 13!!!!1!") - When I was thirteen, I could spell. My style of writing was pretty dreadful, but the spelling and grammar was correct. And when it wasn't correct after writing, it was damn sure correct after proofreading. And if I didn't proofread, I didn't show it to anyone - nobody, however rushed, should post anything without proofreading. Laziness is no excuse.
- "But Harry and Ginny will get together later in the story!" - We hear this one a lot. It generally means that, by dint of some tenuous stretch of reasoning, the writer - and I use the term, of course, quite wrongly - has paired up Harry with someone (usually Hermione or, curiously, Susan Bones) and Ginny with somebody else (almost invariably, don't ask me why, with Draco, of all people) and will spend the first 85 chapters of the story writing wince-inducingly bad circumlocutions for PWP, with a whole bunch of angst that finally ends up putting them together in chapter 87 of 87. Newsflash: that's not an H/G story.
- "But it's my first story!" - That's a valid excuse for a lot of things being bad; plotting, characterisation, style, pacing... but not spelling. It's not an excuse for spelling, or for grammar, or for refusing to take good advice. You want to learn, listen to and learn from anyone who'll give you advice.
- "But English isn't my first language!" - Cry me a river. We've got lots of writers whose mother tongues aren't English, and they either do their homework to improve their English, or they get a good beta to help them. Doing neither is just lazy.
- "But I don't need help!" - Yes you do. J K Rowling has an editor. Terry Pratchett, who's a significantly better author, has an editor. No matter how good the writer, there's always scope for improvement, and anyone who says they can't get better is either incompetent or stupid. Take your pick, or take the advice.
- "But it's my story, and I don't care!" - Fine. Sod off.
- "but im a brilliant writer and iv won awards and ur just jelus!!!" - You're not. For as long as you believe the word "you" contains only one letter, you are barely literate.
I could go on. In fact, some day I will go on, as soon as I get some more things to be annoyed about.
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 09:20PM to say:
"I can not be punished and/or criticised for excersing the rights my country offers me"
The individuals who flame your story might mount the same argument. They would be mistaken. The only rights that individuals on this website enjoy are those that the administrators decide should be afforded to them. This is their corner of the web, and what they say here, goes. If they wanted to, they could, on a whim, decide that every review had to end with the words "all hail the allmighty SIYE staff - may they live forever", and you'd either have to end all your reviews in that manner or accept whatever consequences they decided to give you.
The staff here don't make unreasonable demands like that of us, and they don't dictate how we will spend our time on the site in exact terms, because they choose not to. Not because they can't, but because they don't want to.
The same holds true of any other corner of the web. The people in charge can ban your IP with no better reason than 'I don't like him/her' - whether you are a citizen of the U.S or anywhere else, it doesn't make any difference. On the internet, the webmasters make the rules.
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 09:23PM to say:
On a related note - any comment about the multiple reviews thing? IMO, it's just as malicious as flaming, and infinitely easier to get away with.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 09:29PM to say:
The multiple review thing is an issue; I'll see if we can't have a think about it. Oh, and Horizons, I like that All Hail thing. Let's do that.
DQBunny came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 09:35PM to say:
BeyondRedHorizons: Basically, if a review is cussing at an author, telling them to stick their story where the sun don't shine (one of the recent ones an author alerted me to. The reviewer used more vulgar language) and is making threats against an author. It's basically up to the discretion of the administration and archivists and those people have common sense. Read what Torak has to say, he sums it up wonderfully.
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.29 - 11:58PM to say:
BeyondRedHorizons, I understand what you're saying. However, most flames are not respectful of either the author or the story. Hence the name 'flames'. Also, I'd like to say that in review of my earlier post, I may have over stepped my boundaries. Seeing as I'm not sure how the Amendments work when the arguement is on a website that can be accessed by anyone from anywhere. I apoligise. I also think its time for the SIYE Admin.'s to tighten the leash on what is being said here. Not that they aren't handling things alright as it is, but this could easily erupt into and all out 'flame fest' which you not be good. Everyone, please do what I have only recently done. 1.) Write a response, but DON'T submit it. 2.) Walk away from you computer for a bit and cool down [get something to eat, watch some T.V., play a game, ect.]. 3.) Come back and re-read what you wrote and determine if it is acceptable or over the top, then go from there. Oh and by the way, BeyondRedHorizons; I think I know whta atributes to multiple reviews. You see, I discovered that when you hit the submit button for a review multiple times, you submit multiple copies of the same review. It's happened to me while submiting reviews to: Meddle. I think that 97% of the time, it's just an accident. The other 3% of the time is just people being annoying. ~Jeff~
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 12:05AM to say:
BeyondRedHorizons, I understand what you're saying. However, most flames are not respectful of either the author or the story. Hence the name 'flames'. Also, I'd like to say that in review of my earlier post, I may have over stepped my boundaries. Seeing as I'm not sure how the Amendments work when the arguement is on a website that can be accessed by anyone from anywhere. I apoligise. I also think its time for the SIYE Admin.'s to tighten the leash on what is being said here. Not that they aren't handling things alright as it is, but this could easily erupt into and all out 'flame fest' which you not be good. Everyone, please do what I have only recently done. 1.) Write a response, but DON'T submit it. 2.) Walk away from you computer for a bit and cool down [get something to eat, watch some T.V., play a game, ect.]. 3.) Come back and re-read what you wrote and determine if it is acceptable or over the top, then go from there. Oh and by the way, BeyondRedHorizons; I think I know whta atributes to multiple reviews. You see, I discovered that when you hit the submit button for a review multiple times, you submit multiple copies of the same review. It's happened to me while submiting reviews to: Meddle. I think that 97% of the time, it's just an accident. The other 3% of the time is just people being annoying. ~Jeff~
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 12:07AM to say:
What the...? How'd that- SEE! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN! My point has been proven. ~Jeff~
BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 12:54AM to say:
SoccerDevil - I was talking more about deliberate multiple-reviewing, though. I'm pretty sure that some people on this site are purposely giving stories they have a problem with multiple low ratings to ensure that the star rating of the story's low.
There've been several occasions where I've seen a story with a reasonable number of reviews and 4 1/2 or 5 star rating, only to come back later to see that the same story has received no more reviews than before, and yet has a 2 or 2 1/2 star rating. Simple mathematics will show you that it's impossible for a single bad rating to have lowered the average so drastically, which indicates that the story's received multiple poor ratings in a short space of time.
It makes sense to me to assume that the same individual has just reloaded and resubmitted the same 1/10 rating several times to ensure that the story looks bad - I can't imagine that five or six separate people would all look at the same story in a short period of time and all decide that they hate it, yet all decide not to leave reviews.
As for my previous comment - I wasn't trying to be offensive, but it irritates me a little when people assume that they have the same rights as members of an online community as they do in 'real' life. Webmasters have the right to ban any individual, account, or IP they feel warrants a ban, and they aren't required to provide a rationale for their decision making. What that basically means is that they can make whatever rules for the community that they feel like. It's got nothing to do with the internet being international - the same holds true for a page viewed exclusively by U.S citizens, or a page viewed exclusively by South Africans or Samoans. If you want to be a member of an online community, you have to abide by the rules that whoever's in charge of it sets. Otherwise, whoever's in charge can simply kick you out, and there's nothing you can do about it. Not saying that SIYE would operate in such a fashion - just speaking generally.
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 01:14AM to say:
I understand what your saying and, as previously stated, I admit that I was out of bounds in bringing in the Amendments. The thing about me is... I'm stubborn. So much so that I'll usually continue to argue a point even if I am clearly wrong, just because I don't like to be proven wrong. I agree, webmasters have the final say, period. I get where your coming from with the whole review thing. My comment on that is the people who do that are arse's and I'd like to see the write something. More than likely, they did write something and few reviews and a low rating so they attack stories that do better then them. I hope we have come to an accord. Anything further you'd like to discuss, please PM me. ~Jeff~
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 01:19AM to say:
Everybody - OK, everybody cool down a bit here. Deep breath. In. Out. OK, now we can continue.
SoccerDevil22 - I don't think I subscribe to the idea of counter-flaming. As I pointed out earlier, while counter-flaming (and beating down the opponent with the sheer might of legal-ese) is deeply satisfying, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. For one, flamers love a bun-fight, and they'll only be happy to turn on the Flamethrower to Maximum Power. Then the war escalates and spills over to the innocent bystanders, eventually attracting vultures to pick at the corpses (i.e. Fandom Wank).
Being flamed, and having the legal right to flame back, doesn't mean its the morally-correct thing to do. Analogy? Harry Potter. I'm quite sure no Auror will be after him anytime soon for using the Crusciatus Curse on Alecto/Amycus (can't remember which), yet I can't see Harry (or fandom) living with what he has done.
He flamed me first, so I flamed right back. I'm in the right anyway, it's a free country.
He used Crucio on me, so I Crucio-ed right back. I'm in the right anyway, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Summing up, I believe the morally right thing to do (as opposed to the legally-right thing to do) would be to step back and remove yourself from the conflict. The flamer will either burn himself out (flame-out?) or realise he's making a fool of himself.
The Kid
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 01:20AM to say:
P.S. Soccer Devil22 - Hitting the 'back' key on a browser also results in multiple reviews/comments.
P.P.S. Torak A salute? Ave, Caesar. Moritori te salutant.
Soccer Devil22 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 01:41AM to say:
They can max their flamethrower all they want. I'll just napalm the battlefeild. Or better yet, nuke their butts. Fighting back and doing it cleanly is one thing I'm VERY good at. As for fandom wank... well screw them. ~Jeff~
MickyBlueEyes came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 06:49AM to say:
I have just read through all of these messages and I am shocked and disgusted that you are all arguing about the subject of flames. Reading through all of the above messages I came across something what stnssydny said. From what I can gather the story that stnssydny read must have really made something tick for that person to send that flame. If its possible could someone please tell me what the contraversial FLAMES were because I also read that someone thought that they were constructive critism as well. I shall leave it here for now and if anyone can tell me what those flames were than please either post here or send a personal messgae to my account so that I can decide for myself wheather they are flames or constructive critism.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 07:55AM to say:
Mickyblueeyes, the matter of the flames has been closed. You're not in a position to audit the site's administrative decisions, so don't expect a CC of those reviews any time soon. The consensus within the staff was that the reviews were inappropriately argumentative and groundless; as a result, they were removed.
Kezzabear came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 08:08AM to say:
Well, I was going to clarify what I meant, but it's gone on a bit of a tangent since then! I still don't think it's too much to expect someone to be polite. If you are mature about things you can usually sort things out as in an experience I recently had where I thought an author's response to my review of their story was uneccessarily harsh. As far as I am aware we sorted it out without hard feelings. If you need a mediator to help achieve that, contact admin. It seems starightforward to me.
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 12:44PM to say:
Back on the multiple review thing; that tends to be just as malicious as flaming, only the perpetrator does it multiple times to actually reduce the rating a story has. Like BRH said, how does a story with 4 and 1/2 or a 5 go down to a 2 in a such a short time period, when there's only been a few reads? Its just as destructive, maybe even more malicious because its intended to make the story look bad rather express their opinion. The admin really need to take care of that one too. I also think, authors should have the right to be as harsh in their response as the flamer was, becasue sure two wrongs don't make a right, but who said anything about making it right, flamers deserve every bit of revenge they get. Flamers should be handed suspensions or IP bans depending on the degree of their insults. There's a way of criticising a story in a way that doesn't border on personal attacks on an author, a flamer who disregards the rules of constructive criticism. For example, on my story a review like this was left 'Harry would never do anything like that, if your going to write a story, do it right.' IMO, that constitutes a flame. It doesn't give any rational explanation, any reason for their opinion, just a flat out insult to my abilities. That is not constructive criticsm, it didn't help me in any way or form, it only upset me. Now another review, that wasn't gushing with praise. "I don't think Cho ever really was purely physical; Harry's internal monologue when he's trying to ask her out to the Yule Ball makes that pretty clear. He fancies her because she's pretty, but also because she's good at Quidditch and because she's popular, and because she seems to have a strong character and always appears to be fun to be with - essentially the same set of reasons that subsequently draw him to Ginny. Ginny and Cho are both Harry's dream girl - they are everything he finds desirable and admirable in the opposite sex. Whereas Ginny turns out to be everything that she seems, however, Harry's mental Cho doesn't survive the process of becoming acquainted with the real one - the real Cho turns out to be overly emotional, self absorbed, and not at all understanding of Harry's priorities. His infatuation consequently disappears, to the point where he is totally unmoved when he hears that she's gone after someone else. What's the point of all of this? Frankly, I think Harry's feelings towards Cho were a lot more complicated and involved than your story gives them credit for being. A purely physical infatuation would never have endured for as long as it did, or been so completely exclusive (Harry spends three years completely unmoved by other girls - he doesn't even particularly react to Fleur). " Thats constructive criticism. No insults regarding the authors ability, and note the review says 'your story' not 'you'. It also hepls the author correct whatever is wrong with the story. That is the difference between a flame and constructive criticism MickyBlueEyes.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 04:59PM to say:
I think Authors do have the right to defend the stories they write, but as an author, I for one make sure I don't overstep my boundries. If I do, and another reader reads my respond with cussing or swearing involved, I might lose him/her, and everyone else for it.
We as Authors need to watch wwhat e say. If J.K. went to the Pope and told him off for saying her story is evil, how many of us would have continue to read her story? How many of us human beings would have thought of her differently?
Also, we need to except there will be readers out there that will find anything to bicker about, because they are negitive thinkers. I should know, my mom is one, and half the time my family is arguing with her about something.I'll admit, I don't like being flamed, but if it happens and I don't like it, including if there are swear words involved, I will get a hold of the administration and ask them to remove it.
Also, this whole thing about rating, my brother-in-law had wrote a story a while ago, and in one of his chapters, he wrote Football, and he did not mean American Football, but what Americans call Soccer. Well, someone who is an American didn't know Soccer is call Football world wide decided to flamw my brother-in-law and knocked his rating down from a five to a two. Now I say that is out of hand.As for me when I get flamed, I keep it cool and funny:) Readers who give constructive critizisms I thank and try to explain of how I see things, or how I write kindly, and then I say, "I'll give it a try." Although, last time things didn't go too well. I kind of slipped up on my wording to a reviewer about a month and a half ago. Ya know who ya are:D
Anyway, enough of my blabber mouth, I hope everyone will get along,Mike-kun;)
Dianne came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 05:05PM to say:
Okay, I think one thing that people should keep in mind when reviewing is that you are not Simon from American Idol. What you call constructive may hurt someone. Also, I have found that a lot of people who consider themselves constructive reviewers, are just plain mean and feel superior that they apparently don't make mistakes. This site has standards and authors need to take the appropriate steps to meet them. By the same token, we learn by experience and if someone is overly critical, we can become quickly disenchanted with our hobby of writing. Yes, yes, we get it you're perfect in every way and so you feel you must point out every single mistake. Everyone makes them, even you. Surprise, you're not perfect. I never expect to see silly phrases and abbreviated spelling in stories like the ones mentioned in some of these comments, that's just wrong. But people do improve with time. I only recently learned about something called filtering. A person I happened to have met through this wonderful site told me that I had a habit of filtering, which is when a writer tells instead of shows what's going on in a scene. Like this ,,, Harry felt a rain drop hitting him on the head ... Instead of that, it might be best to say 'A raindrop landed on Harry's forehead, causing him to blink the water from his eyes.' Or something other than 'he felt,' or 'she felt'. Anyway, my point is, we all grow and if people will insist on hindering a writer's progress with ridicule we will cease to grow. Even cloaking your venom with what you think is constructive is not helpful. And what's more, people who do that look like snobs to most others. I have been lucky. I have not been outright flamed but my heart goes out to those that have been. And I'm with most of the writers here who agree that if you don't like something, don't continue reading it. I think like one other person here said, take a deep breath and everyone, get over yourselves. Check your egos at the door when you write and when you review. And if you have the need to be constructive, why not offer some help to the writer you are reviewing if you know better? If the person accepts, great, if not, move on. Who needs drama? Oh, I have gotten so much help from people I met here at siye over the years!! Also, keep in mind when reviewing that people have feelings and life events taking place that have nothing to do with siye. Many people write to escape their personal troubles, perhaps a relative is dying or there is a dire issue. When you review, picture a person you might meet and like before you write, see them as a human being with feelings. Okay, this is getting long and I'm getting repetitive, but I'm forty and I'm a mom and I just want everyone to have peace and respect. Please.
Kezzabear came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 06:39PM to say:
Oh Dianne I have learned about what I now phrase 'Show and tell' as well! And then someone spoke to me about passive voice. If the people speaking to me about these things had been rude or flaming in their informing/reviewing I would have said "kiss my ..." Because they were repsectful I learned something and now I am sure I write better and I feel I have something to offer others as well. As long as they are polite when they tell me I am full of it that's okay too :D .
Slipped wording is easily overcome :D but not if someone flames back.
JadeSeraph came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 08:45PM to say:
Torak: That was a rule of thumb for the socially inept - I'd rather see a post that makes facts into opinions than opinions into flames. It was in response to a point that Red made. I must admit I don't agree with your ideas on what's acceptable/should be in a review, as well as some other things, but I won't argue it because my opinion is irrelevant when it comes to the administration of SIYE.
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:05PM to say:
Arguing with the admin, does tend to be rather pointless Jade, because they run the site, they make the rules, we follow them. However you make a valid point and I really think you should try, the admin will probably be willing to listen to you if the issue concerns the entire site, and the very foundation of the site's purpose. Btw, why would it be wrong for an author to respond back? If your attacked, attack back. If I'm flamed, I won't give excuses as aforementioned by Torak, I'll tell the flamer exactly what I think of them , and what they should do with their sorry selves. I think a lot of authors will agree with me on that, at least I hope they will.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:05PM to say:
On the contrary; your opinion is relevant. It may not be a factor in decisions, but given that the staff read these comments all opinions will, inevitably, be taken into account one way or another.
As for what should be in a review, criticism is more useful than sycophancy. A review saying "lol gr8, more plz!!!" is useless, while a review saying "You've got a number of typos in the third paragraph" is useful. Whether it's acceptable or not depends on the tone.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:10PM to say:
Penny, I hate to use clichés, but the old adage is true; in most cases, two wrongs don't make a right. By all means reply with a witty and funny retort - in my view you can get away with an awful lot as long as you're funny, but other archivists may well have a different take on that. The bottom line is that continuing an argument very rarely yields better results than resolving it.
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:11PM to say:
Well, that would go under the category of constructive criticism, which isn't really what this whole discussion is about. Its about flames and what constitutes a flame, like the example I put in an earlier thread, there is a distinct difference between the two, not only in tone, but in wording and purpose.
MickyBlueEyes came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:14PM to say:
Torac This topic is far from over and I don't think that it will be for quite sometime. After I posted my last message yesterday I tried to find stnssydny's account and it appears that it is no longer there. If anyone can please tell me where it is than I would greatly appreciate it because I would like to know what the situation is with his account.
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:16PM to say:
Ah but you see the point really isn't to make a right, flamers deserve to have their words thrown right back at them and then some. I don't argue of excuses to a flamer because they don't deserve them, I tell them they can go straight to that big furnace below our feet. Simple as that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Frankly, I see it quite within the rights of an author to do so.
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:18PM to say:
I meant I don't argue or give excuses...*hits self for error*
DQBunny came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:27PM to say:
MickeyBlueEyes: It was deleted at his request. He has made numerous requests to staff for the removal of his account in the past few days.
JadeSeraph came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:31PM to say:
I agree with what you said about sycophancy, though those reviews are fun to get. I suppose I was referring to your comments about merciless reviewing if an author shows a blatant disregard for the English language. I don't like Dumbledore loosing his patients either, but after pointing out the mistake and gently suggesting a beta, I don't think a harsher review is really going to help. I hate to put take any responsibility off of the writer because it's their job to craft the fic, but at some point if an author refuses to fix mistakes like the example you gave, then the archivists need to start rejecting more. It all really depends on where SIYE wants to put the balance between quality and quantity. (Though, to be quite honest, I stop reading a fic if I see such errors in English)
Micky - I imagine it was deleted and banned if you can't find it on the author search.. I've never had problems with it.
Penny: If you feel that taking revenge upon the flamers is what you should do, then have at it. Just keep it off the public forums where it affects people beside yourself and the other party, and don't complain to SIYE administration when it gets out of hand because I'm sure they won't have much sympathy. I don't know how the admins feel about using the site's private messaging system for such a purpose, but there's always email.
JadeSeraph came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 09:32PM to say:
Edit: DQ posted ahead of me - ignore what I said about accounts and such.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 10:01PM to say:
Okay, two wrongs don't make a right, but when you write two negitive words in one sentence, that sentence becomes a postive; so why can't two wrongs make a right? Lol. I had to do that:)
All right, all right, enough of the knee slapper, there. I want to say about a flame I had gotten years ago. The person was mean to leave a review like she had, and she did it because of all the mistakes in my story. She had said that I was either very young, (which I'm not,) or I'm an obsure writer.
In my response, I had stated, "This was my first fan-fiction," yes I know, I think it was Torak or some one else had written, "so what," so this is no excuse, "and I have dyslexia, so I think a d looks like a b; in other words, I see thing backwards." That's why I have so many mistakes on these comments I leave:)The last things I had written to her was,"I had to look up what obscure means, thanks, I learned a new word."
There were other comments I had left, one I think was that I had asking her to reader my latest story, if she didn't like it, I had asked her please not to read anymore and leave a comment. I never heard from her again, and then I had asked SIYE to remove the review.I think what I'm saying is what Torak had stated, respond with a witty comment:)
Er, by the way, ya fello readers think we'll hit one-hundred comments? Lol, I'm just being funny:)Mike-kun
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 10:02PM to say:
JadeSeraph: I don't tend to get mean unless the "author" has repeatedly shown that they have no desire to improve. But if they're posting the same spelling errors after a year, if they're refusing to correct them - and remember, we archivists see the stories in their raw state; by the time you see them we've got rid of the worst errors - then they're just not trying. That's what I object to, not the errors; everyone has to start somewhere. But they should improve.
Penny, you're quite within your rights to counter-flame. Just don't be surprised if you find your reply deleted. Or the review. Or both. And to everyone reading, remember this:
Your aim isn't to win the argument.
This is the internet. So someone insulted you - it doesn't matter. Don't continue arguments. Retort if you like, but make it funny rather than malicious.
Penny's attitude is entirely wrong, and if I see anything reflecting that attitude, whether review or reply, I'll do everything in my power to remove it, whether you consider it a legitimate defence or not. Letting pride come before common sense is stupid. Is that clear?
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 10:10PM to say:
"She had said that I was either very young, (which I'm not,) or I'm an obsure writer." I so stupid! I meant obscure! And then I meant, "had asked he," not asking, and then reader! I'm so stupid! Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.
Er, I won't get into trouble for flaming myself, will I? Lol:)
lecook4 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 11:13PM to say:
As I read all these comments I have to shake my head. A review is just that... a review of the chapter you just read and good points as to why it is or isn't following the flow of the story as a whole. If it is rated R and has a sudden surprise that you didn't expect, TOUGH! If you went into your local bookstore and bought a book, I can guarantee your that a rape scene probably would not be mentioned on the jacket. You'd just have to be surprised by it. It's not the author's problem to "warn" you of every little detail. If it's rated R then you should KNOW that there are going to be issues that might offend. If you don't like it after a certain point, the STOP reading it and go on with your life. A review is supposed to review the story and how a writer is doing with his characters and plotline, without emotion. It should give clean examples with suggestions for improvement.
A FLAME is someone who takes a review and makes it more about themselves and the author. It's personal and it gets very ugly. I have personally deleted four reviews in the last week and a half, who used four letter words repeatedly towards the author. They know who they are and they know good and well what the admins mean by Flaming. It doesn't mean a negative review, or a constructive review, it means ugly, personal and of absolutely NO VALUE WHATSOEVER. That is the definition of a flame. Anyone leaving a review like that will have it deleted and be warned about leaving further such reviews. Any Author who responds in a like manner will also have his/her response deleted. To argue this point incessantly is pointless.
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 11:40PM to say:
No hold on, at what point, did I say, I would argue back? I'm not going to argue, no they don't deserve that much of my time. I will however, respond back, and its going to be cutting, and mean and sarcastic and whatever other way of expounding on the stupididty of the flamer. I will not use foul or offensive language, but I'm certainly not going to be nice about it. I used to be, but not when things start getting out of hand. And I suppose lecook4 is right. Arguing this is pointless, because you can't argue with the the admin. The admin is the absolute unquestionable masters of SIYE, arguing is a waste of time. Yes, its perfectly clear sir/ma'am, pride before common sense = stupid. Got it. Glad you bolded and enlarged it, sometimes my incredibly ego mingled with my stupidity makes it hard to understand things.
lecook4 came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.30 - 11:56PM to say:
PennyThe only way a flaming review can get out of hand is if you don't immediately report it to the Admin staff so we can remove it, but respond to it on your own instead. Any response will be viewed as an argument by the reviewer and you will have a flame war going on in your comments. This not only will be upsetting for you as an author, but it will run off readers of your story until you have only a few left, if any at all. Instead of "reacting" which is the emotional response, do something that will really get them back. Tell the Admins and they can delete it, warn the reviewer and if they continue, ban them. Don't satisfy their power trip by responding... hit them where it hurts by getting it removed and the reviewer cited. That's much more satisfying and definitely a more correct way to handle it.
sapphire200182 came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 12:05AM to say:
Penny - OK, cool it. No-one is being condescending to you here. Torak may have phrased his words rather harshly, but getting angry now won't help anybody now. We all have to abide by rules that generally are made for our own good. I think I'd garner more satisfaction getting a flamer stripped of his review privileges (or whatever it is the Admins do) rather than flaming back myself.
Sakabatou - Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if you use two negatives next to each other in one sentence, technically you're right but grammatically you're wrong.
e.g. "Harry wasn't no murderer!" yelled Ron in a bad American accent.
The Kid
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 12:06AM to say:
Ok. Fine. I won't respond. You're right. That is the best way to handle it.
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 12:28AM to say:
I'd like to apologise for being such a git. I don't mean to be hurtful and condescending, but sometimes I let things get out of hand. I did not mean to imply that you are stupid.
Regardless, I apologise for my deplorable behaviour.
lecook4 came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 12:40AM to say:
Penny - If you get a flaming review or one that you think is over the top, then feel free to email me directly. If you are more comfortable emailing another staff member, then please do, I'm just offering in case you need it. We want authors to feel comfortable posting their stories here and hate flamers just as much as you do. Don't let it sit there for your readers to find... email us and we'll take care of it. That's what we're here for. :-) - Lynn
Penny Flamel came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 12:44AM to say:
Thank you for apologising, I found your remarks rather harsh, I'm glad you didn't mean to imply my stupidity. I also apologise for some out of hand comments I made, they were in the heat of the argument, so I apologise.
i_lay_my_head_down came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 05:48AM to say:
I must say, I agree with Leonheart666. I'm english too, I have recently published a fanfic here and put it under the rating 'R', I don't know what this is and it's certainly not fitting for my story (which I am going to change immediately) so perhaps some clear indications of what the ratings mean, perhaps? I also agree, I have seen several of these nasty reviews around and I think they are incredibly unnecessary, if you don't like a story state poiltely that it's not in your taste - it's not difficult is it?! Or if you don't like it - don't review at all!
i_lay_my_head_down came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 05:49AM to say:
-politely, stupid typos!
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 08:27AM to say:
We're working at clearer descriptions of the ratings and warnings.
And for the record, that apology post wasn't posted by me. We'll be looking into it to see how a fraudulent comment came to be posted. And yes, that does mean that I haven't apologised, because continuing a flame war instead of simply ending it is stupid.
Sakabatou came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 09:28AM to say:
sapphire-I know I'm wrong, I'm just trying to lighten the crowd and crack a joke. Everybody is so tense:D
bransfolly came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 10:07AM to say:
Torak came out of the woodwork on 2007.12.01 - 08:27AM to say: We're working at clearer descriptions of the ratings and warnings. Is there any chance you can include a review for excessive cliches
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BeyondRedHorizons came out of the woodwork on 2007.11.26 - 04:47AM to say:
If I might make a suggestion - the user delete function hasn't been working for quite some time. I know I have, on occasion, posted a review only to belatedly realise that it might have been phrased more diplomatically, and yet been unable to edit or remove it in any way. I am not sure that allowing users to edit their reviews, or delete them, will cut down on the instances of 'flaming', but it can't hurt.